Thursday, January 27, 2011

Big Ben Is Elite...Deal With It

Jay Cutler would have went on IR with this broken nose.
***WARNING - this is very long***My goal today is not to make everyone like Ben Roethlisberger (because that will never ever happen).  My goal is to make you all acknowledge that he is an elite quarterback worthy of being in the same discussion as Tom Brady.  Many of you shared your perspective on Monday.  Today, I use the only thing that I have to prove you all wrong.  While the commentariat tried to belittle his achievements with opinions that were not really true, I will use FACTS.  Stone cold truths that prove your theories wrong and I will also take your points and turn them around to make you see things for what they are.  Get ready for some iron-clad proof that I am right and you are wrong.  Hell, around my neighborhood, they call me "Sergeant Facto Judson" (what an obscure Simpsons reference!).  So as hard as it might be to set aside Ben's off-field issues, let's take a deep look into the quarterback.  Pay attention, you will learn something today.

Anon said: He will never be as good as Brady, Manning. Favre. Marino, Elway. and should never be in the same sentence as Montana.
--We will see about Brady.  Other than his 50 touchdown with no Super Bowl season, he hasn't really racked up the numbers.  And his reputation for being a winner has taken a pretty sizeable hit over the past 5 years.  Peyton and Favre have one ring each with very good talent and have ended more seasons with stupid decisions than they have saved them.  Dan Marino isn't even welcome into this conversation.  John Elway never won anything without Terrell Davis and Mike Shanahan...should we hold that against him?  While Montana was amazing, he was never a numbers monger.  He wouldn't have been a top fantasy football pick.  He just won playoff games and Super Bowls.  Period.  Sound familiar?

Iceman said:  There's no one you would rather have in the 4th quarter because no other team's defense allows the QB to still make plays that matter in the 4th quarter by successfully masking all of the mistakes he made in the first three quarters. Who has a 35 QB rating in the AFC championship game?
--Huh?  I'm not even sure that that first run-on sentence made sense.  For as good as the Steelers defense is, they've still given up over 21 points per game at home in the playoffs against average (at best) offenses.  Sure, his numbers against that very good Jets defense weren't great, but he made all the plays down the stretch that he needed to which he has done throughout his career which pretty much defines clutch.  And if you didn't notice, every QB last weekend seemed a bit off.  But that wasn't even in the top 3 for your dumbest comments on Monday.

Mr. Ace said:  Playing for the Steelers has made his career much more than it should be. He's no Tom Brady. He's more like Trent Dilfer.
--You say this as if winning a Super Bowl were the easiest thing possible.  Like we could all get together, form a really unathletic team, and just watch the Lombardi trophies come rolling in.  Can we maybe say that Tom Brady is overrated?  He hasn't won a playoff game in four years and lost the last three games (NYG, BAL, and NYJ) when his team was a HEAVY favorite in all of them.  And why don't we attack Brady for having bastard kids all over the country one of the best head coaches in football history?  This is a huge double standard.  Does Brady only have one Super Bowl with Joe Nedney instead of Adam Vinatieri?  I don't know, but it's something to consider.  You don't win titles as a one man band.  "Game managers" don't win multiple championships.

Dut said:  If I were starting a franchise, I would not pick Big Ben as my franchise QB. He is solid, but I think the Steelers are still in the superbowl with at least 15 other QBs in this league. I evaluate QBs based on if you remove them from the team. Take away Ben and the Steelers are still elite. Take away Manning and the Colts are the Browns.
--Ironically, Dut, the Steelers did just what you said that you wouldn't do 7 years ago and it has worked out pretty well for them.  I am amazed that you are not working in the front office for some team.  15?  Again, you make it sound so simple.  Rivers had the best defense in the league this year and couldn't make the playoffs.  Tony Romo has incredible talent all over the field and has one playoff win.  Donovan McNabb was the same way.  And to be quite honest, if you swapped Peyton to the Steelers for this postseason, I don't think that they are still playing.  I've seen Peyton suck too much under the bright lights to trust him.  I see your point though about the Steelers still being pretty good, but they wouldn't be elite.  They would be more like the Jets and the Ravens.  Playoff teams, but not really a Super Bowl contender.  And if Ben played the last 7 years with the Colts, don't you think that Indy would have more than 1 Super Bowl win?  I do.

Iceman said:  Raper was so bad in the last Super Bowl, Pittsburgh almost lost (if not for a Steeler defensive TD to close the half) to a team that barely made the playoffs. Raper's first SB win is still the worst statistic game of any SB winning QB. How are we being haters? He wins on the heels of a great defense and probably the best defensive coordinator in the history of football. Put him on any other team and his success is cut in half. Fact.
--To Iceman, this equals bad:  21-30/256/1 TD/1 INT/93.2 Rating.  Yep, that Harrison touchdown ended the game right there, didn't it?  Forget about Fitzgerald's touchdown with 2 minutes left (in which no one covered him) for Arizona to take the lead.  MEANINGLESS.  Let's also ignore that 90 yard drive Ben led to win it and featured one of the greatest throws-and-catches in Super Bowl history.  HARRISON WON THE GAME.  That Cardinals team got pretty damn hot at the right time and they were quarterbacked by Our Lord and Savior Jesus Warner.  There have been worse teams in the Super Bowl.  Do we look down on Brady's two wins against McNabb and Delhomme?  Of course not because then we would be acknowledging the double standard!  And sure, in 2005 when he became the youngest QB to ever win a Super Bowl, he didn't play well at all.  But let's not forget who got them to Detroit.  They won three road games to get there.  Ben's numbers, you ask?  49-72, 7 touchdowns, 1 pick.  Outstanding.  Please, I would love to see your list of the greatest defensive coordinators in league history.  And again, these are not facts that you present.  They are opinions.  I present facts.

Iceman said even more:  What won the game was the defense...nearly shutting out the Jets in the first half and making an enormous goal line stand in the 4th to preserve a small lead. Give credit to the strength of your team for Christ sake. Brady has 4 titles playing on that team. Maybe more.
--What is it with you and ending games at halftime?  Had the Jets just run Shonn Greene 4 times, that defense likely gives up 24 points to Mark Sanchez.  The strength of the Steelers:  defense, wide receiver, and a play-making quarterback.  You do realize that they have had a very average running game ever since he's been around which makes sense because that offensive line is terrible.  How many Pro Bowlers has Brady had blocking for him and keeping him clean?  Want to know how many the Steelers have had:  2 and one of them was a rookie this year (the other being Faneca who left the team three-four years ago).  That makes a big difference when you can fluff your hair in the pocket for ten seconds as opposed to running for your life as soon as the snap gets to you.

Iceman yet again:  Any time your starting quarter back sits out for whatever reason (motorcycle accident, emergency surgery, rape) and the team doesn't suffer in the win/loss column you can see where the strength of the team is. For Pittsburgh that strength has always been and will always be the defense.
--Ah yes, all of these examples that you gave caused him to miss a whole FIVE games in 7 years.  Whoopty-fucking-doo.  That is hardly definitive proof that they would be just the same without him.  What happened when he was out with his concussions and the Steelers lost?  Can we count those games here?  And are you implying that the Steelers are a playoff team with Byron Leftwich and/or Charlie Batch and/or Dennis Dixon?  Surely you jest.  That is flat out absurd.

Look, I don't want to make you all look and feel as stupid as you are.  You were just born ignorant and are trying to deal with it.  I get it.  But this is what I know:
*His career playoff record is 10-2
*The Steelers have a below average offensive line and an average at best running game
*Bruce Arians is a very shaky offensive coordinator
*You can't win a title just on defense
*He is 2-0 in Super Bowls
*He is going for his third ring in 7 years
*I wouldn't want any other QB to have the ball in the 4th quarter of a playoff game
*As vague as this sounds, he just makes plays

In essence, he's the best winner in football right now.  It doesn't always shows up in the stats but when the game is on the line, there is no one better than Ben.  And that is why I compared him to Derek Jeter on Monday.  I will even take it a step further with another comparison.  He is the ultimate closer in the game currently.  He is a white trash Mariano Rivera.  Just answer me this, if you had to win ONE playoff game, who would you rather have? You're lying if you say anyone else and I have history on my side to prove it.
Now, I don't want you to think that this is a homer post because it isn't.  I truly believe that he did what he was accused of in Georgia but got away with it.  And one day, karma is going to get him for it.  But you know what, I don't care.  You look at everything I just laid out there and tell me that that isn't elite.  Tell me.  Because if you even think otherwise, you are dead wrong.  I hate Mike Vick for what he did but my fat ass doesn't care when he's entertaining the shit out of me on Sundays.  Same thing here.  Respect him for what he is...one of the best quarterbacks and winners in the game.  Elite quarterbacks are made on the field, not on stat sheets.  GMoney has spoken.

39 comments:

Anonymous said...

I will say this. IF he has a shitty SB and wins this year.. He will most likey have the Shittiest numbers out of all QB's To have won a SB. His first SB was God Awful. The one vs Arizona was pretty solid. I'll give him credit there.. Lets see what he does next weekend !

Anonymous said...

I just drove past the Northwest Ohio Regional Jail. The fence that surrounds the place looked very familiar, especially the top wire. Then I put 2 and 2 together and figured out that is what they made the AFC champion trophy out of!!!!

Grumpy said...

G$ presents the facts and wins his case. I'm not going to let the haters on here ruin the fact that my favorite team and my favorite player are in the Super Bowl for the 3rd time in Ben's 7 seasons. You can have the QB's with all the style points; I'll take the one who wins the games.

As G$ so eloquently put it, DEAL WITH IT.

Anonymous said...

For those of you who want to continue to call Big Ben "raper" and things of that sort..........
Let me ask you one simple question. At his age and single, would you not be going to the bars like most other men getting drunk and/or looking for women?? Now add over 100 million in your pocket! If you can honestly say "not me", then I look forward to you leading the gay rights parade this year in DC!

Stop being a hypocrite!! TV sells and that is why most of you Big Ten football fans think the Big Ten is dominant as that is all you watch. For you OSU fans, the only time you see the SEC or the Pac 10 is when you watch the highlites (probably drunk) on ESPN! In regards to these "2 issues", you are getting only one side of the story and that is all you read and want to believe. Ben can not defend himself. In this day and age, if those charges had any chance of sticking, don't you think the law enforcement would have CHARGED him in either case? Even the wigmaster would throw the book at him if he had a chance to improve his career!! 'nuff said

GMoney said...

If he wins next Sunday then he's going to the Hall of Fame. If the Pack win, karma got him.

I stand behind everything I said and know that it hurts a little because I don't want to be on the same side of an argument as moron Steeler fans.

GMoney said...

Dammit, this has nothing to do with the off-field stuff. We're not "going there" today.

Jeff said...

AMEN

The Iceman said...

Iceman said: There's no one you would rather have in the 4th quarter because no other team's defense allows the QB to still make plays that matter in the 4th quarter by successfully masking all of the mistakes he made in the first three quarters.

What I meant by this is that people are so enamored with Raper's ability to "make a play" at the end of the game to win it, they totally forget why they team is in that situation in the first place. Look at Raper's TD to INT ratio. It's horrendous. How many lost fumbles does he have in his career? Do you know how many turnovers this guy is responsible for? And don't blame the offensive line because there are guys who have worse lines than Pittsburgh who don't turn the ball over nearly as often. Look at Aaron Rodgers. When Raper's turning the ball over in the first 3 quarters and playing like a bum, Manning and Brady are building leads to take pressure off of defenses that are worst that what Raper has.

My point is simply with a defense as good as the Steelers (top 10 every year Raper has been there and top 5 six of the seven years), no quarterback should ever have to "make a play" to win it in the 4th quarter. The game should already be well in hand. Maybe if Raper played better in the first 3 quarters he wouldn't have to worry about winning it in crunch time. That's the difference. Brady and Manning play complete games where as Raper doesn't.

MuDawgfan said...

I love the Falcons, we never play the Steelers and I really don't know any Steelers fans. However, I have a feeling Ben gets dumped on (moreso than usual) simply because there are PLENTY of Steeler hate out there.


G$ brought up an interesting point about Kurt Warner. He's someone who was almost always viewed as a winner - a classic leader and smart QB. But he's 1-2 in SuperBowls and I'd take Ben at his best over Warner at his best any day of the week.

Anonymous said...

So do you think Craig Krenzel was an elite quarterback in college? You could make all of the same arguments for Krenzel (and even TP!!) As you just did Ben. Now shut your face!

Anon- the only 2 times OSU has seen the PAC10/SEC the last 2 years all they have done is beat their ass in 2 BCS games. Get the F out of here.

Dut

Grumpy said...

Actually, MuDawgfan, the Steelers and Falcons played this season. Steelers won with the 3rd string QB.

Drew said...

Dut....I thought the same exact thing when reading his bullet-point facts. Hell, TP plays better in BCS Bowls than Ben does in Super Bowls as shown by his two MVP's.

Humorous.

MuDawgfan said...

Grump - I know that, it was the home opener and went into OT.

My point was about overall Steelers hate and I was trying to present an unbiased opinion.

It's hard considering I was at Miami when he was KILLING the MAC

The Iceman said...

"Actually, MuDawgfan, the Steelers and Falcons played this season. Steelers won with the 3rd string QB."

This shows the eliteness of Roethlisberger.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Iceman and Dut - you HAVE to take into account the current wins against good teams with a third string QB. It does show prove less value of the Rapist when that team can win with a shit backup QB, over and over.

Seal

GMoney said...

Iceman, 21 fumbles lost in 7 years. You're point was just crushed. Rex Grossman lost 21 fumbles in three games this year.

Craig Krenzel has nothing to do with this. If I want to buy a Nissan, then we can talk about him. And a more apt comparison would be Tim Tebow anyway since he, you know, did what he did in TITLE games.

My point is that you can pick apart everyone's game and teammates. What you can't pick apart is wins and losses. 10-2. I rest on your face. And yes, this post pretty much confirms that I should have went to law school to be the next Dan Fielding.

GMoney said...

4 games at the beginning of the season over the course of a 7 year career is hardly a big enough sample size. How about this:

Yep, they went 3-1. But the one was to Joe Flacco at home and Ben NEVER loses to the Ravens. So again, you need to look at things from a wider scope to see the entire picture.

Anonymous said...

G$- where do they teach you to ignore reasonable arguments/comparisons in law school?

Krenzel also did what he did in the TITLE game. He also went undefeated.

People (idiots) grade QBs too much on superbowl wins. People consider Barry Sanders one of the greatest RBs ever, but I think he only went to the playoffs once. How can he be so good if his team never had success? How many superbowls would Ben have if he was drafted by the Redskins, Browns, or Lions? None.

Dan Marino would have won the superbowl every year if he had the talent around him that Ben has.

Also, Ben barely beat the Napoleon Wildcats. That alone takes him out of the top 20.

Dut

GMoney said...

Your reasonable argument is invalid since this college QB got one ring, not two. And his stat line from that game is even worse than Ben's SB against Seattle:

7-21, 122, 0 TD, 2 INT. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS GUY WHEN HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE POST!!! Go sit in the corner, you're done.

I think that most of you are letting your hatred of the Steelers get in the way of rational thought. I have no problem with the hatred toward that team, I just ask you to acknowledge what a smart football fan such as myself already sees.

The Iceman said...

My point is that you can pick apart everyone's game and teammates. What you can't pick apart is wins and losses.

And my point is that it's monumentally easier to win games...regular season or playoffs...when you have a top 5 defense to lean on. Your faults as a player get covered up.

Granted it's not Raper's fault that he got lucky and landed on a historically great team who just happened to have a shit year the year before he was drafted. But you can't ignore that if any other team would have drafted Raper we would not be having this discussion about how "elite" he is. Raper doesn't do what Brady has or what Manning has if he gets drafted to the Pats or the Colts. Raper's success as a QB hinges directly on how great that defense has been since he's been there. Again...6 of his 7 years the defense has been in the top 5. You can't honestly believe that having a great defense is not an enormous advantage as an NFL QB.

GMoney said...

How many superbowls would Ben have if he was drafted by the Redskins, Browns, or Lions? None.

Dan Marino would have won the superbowl every year if he had the talent around him that Ben has.


I don't know. I don't have a "What If" machine. And I'm pretty sure that you don't either. Ironically, all three of those great franchises passed on him in the Draft.

And what do you know about Marino? The last great year that he had was in 1994 which would have put you at about ten years old and shoving your He-Man up your ass. You know nothing about Marino.

GMoney said...

Having a great defense is definitely an advantage but you need more. Cowher and Tomlin aren't Belichick and (ugh) Dungy. Vinatieri and...Vinatieri are better than Reed.

We'll agree to disagree that Ben would be more successful in Indy and New England, I guess.

no quarterback should ever have to "make a play" to win it in the 4th quarter
--Yep, Browns fans, congratulations. Those John Elway drives NEVER HAPPENED!!!

The Iceman said...

You don't have a "what if" machine but I sure hope you have a common sense machine. All of those franchises are more than "just a QB" away or "just one player" away from being relevant. They're all constant projects. When the Steelers drafted Raper they were already a playoff team and had a solid core of really good players. Huge advantage.

Anonymous said...

GMoney, the one "fact" you've left out is that you're blinded by the jizz bombs you allow Ben to drop in your eyes.

Don't let your love for Oxford style rape-facials get in the way of rational thought.

J from JBeanie

The Iceman said...

I'll rephrase...

No ELITE quarterback should have to make a play to win it in the 4th quarter when he plays on a team with a top 5 defense every fucking year. Especially when he's on a team with about 5 Hall of Fame players.

GMoney said...

Here's something for you to ignore:

In the 12 playoff games that I am referencing to, the Steelers defense has averaged giving up 21.3 points in those games. So for a 10-2 career record, a QB would have to average more than that, right? Idiots.

J, my hate for the Steelers should not come into question here. You've been reading this site long enough. It's just that I understand football.

Anonymous said...

I have to admit, although there are reasonable arguments on both sides, I definitely agree with G$. The one stat you cannot argue with is wins in the playoffs. Admittedly, sometimes his defense is the main reason for the wins, but for him to have the record he does, he has to be doing something right. If I needed to make a playoff run, there is only one QB I choose, Big Ben. Not Manning or even Brady. There is something to be said for the intangibles (i.e., being clutch) and Big Ben has them.

-Lil' Strut

The Iceman said...

Also in those 12 playoff games the defense/special teams was responsible for multiple TDs. Not to mention that Raper had Hall of Fame players at WR and RB both Super Bowls the Steelers won with him at QB. I'm not saying Raper is bad. He's a good QB...a damn good QB. He just shouldn't be in the elite conversation. The team that surrounds him is too good for him to be considered elite at his position.

Tony B. said...

Ben's playoff record is phenomenal and he made one of the greatest throws in Super Bowl history to win the game. That's enough for me to realize he's a savage.

If you make the argument that he's not good because he has great teammates, then you couldn't actually ever say that anyone is good in sports. Montana had Jerry Rice, Roger Craig, John Taylor, and Ronnie Lott. Aikman had Irvin, E. Smith, and the rest of those hooligans. If someone is able to win a championship, it's hard to hate on that and give everyone else on the team credit but not the QB.

The Iceman said...

I'm not saying that at all. Raper is a damn good quarterback. He just isn't elite. If half of the NFL starting QBs could take Raper's place on that team and have equal or more success...that isn't elite. There are only a handful of guys that could mimic the success of Brady or Manning if swapped out on those teams. That's elite.

GMoney said...

LS and Tony, you are wise. Ice, I'm glad to see that you've calmed down and I will accept you for admitting that he's "damn good". That's fine. If we disagree on the definition of being elite, well, arguing about sports is what makes sports fucking awesome.

Anonymous said...

G$,

Quit being a pussy and go for Ice's jugular!

-Lil' Strut

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
GMoney said...

I warned you. This isn't a topic about morals.

The Iceman said...

DELETED! This is a dictatorship fuckers!

Grumpy said...

It IS a dictatorship and G$ has the power. If you're too fucking stupid to understand that, then you're just fucking stupid. But then, you've already proven that.

Anonymous said...

Grumpy- you never post this late. Isn't it past your bedtime?

After all of this, the only opinion of mine that has changed is I now think Craig Krenzel is an elite QB because he won an ncaa title. Thank you.

Dut

GMoney said...

And it is that kind of thinking that has earned you the right to live a life filled with basketball games with Damman and tummy sticks with Jeff.

Grumpy said...

Not past my bedtime, but I am off to the Senior Early Bird Special at Golden Corral.